Gender-inclusive german?

Hello,
I am a former translator for freedombox (I translated into german language).
I was decried for using gender-inclusive language.
How is it here at Yunohost? Am I welcome to translate

  • simply using “german”?
  • or should be initiated a “new language”: “german gender-inclusive / deutsch
    gendergerecht” so people can choose and the outmoded stay relaxed? And how to do that?

Best wishes
c lul :sloth:

Hello ! Well, you are welcome to translate.

About inclusive Gender, for instance, as far as I know, Yunohost didn’t take any decision even for french. Many members of Yunohost team are against inclusive gender language (I’m against, so I’m partial), other are for.

Creating a new language is a bit strange as german is not still fully translated… Moreover, language of Yunohost is language of the system (not sure what it will choose if it finds 2 languages for german).

In fact gender-inclusive language is (or became) a bit political and ideological in France (from my point of view), but I don’t know what is gender-inclusiveness in german (if it is something common… or not). Will you or another person maintain this ?

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Hello!
I am not sure, this is a common language in Germany and must also be an ideological issue…
I could help translating things into german if someone needs it.

Help is welcome. Documentation is still not translated into German (a big part). It may be useful for new users.

How doing it?

Documentation of Yunohost works like a wiki : you can either translate it frome the website https://yunohost.org/#/docs_de, either doing it on Github : https://github.com/YunoHost/doc

Thanks for raising this request @clul. I was now searching on for this topic because I have seen something on the homepage. For example, the “dude, Y U NO Host?!” can be seen as only speaking to “dudes”. I would see such an effort to broaden the language used in the communication of this project as a path towards being more welcoming to others.

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so true!
decentralizing and autonomy/anti-authoritarianism – for what yunohost stands – are essentially very feminist ideas.
a critical use of language could make this project very attractive to people in the technofeminist/cyberfeminist movement who would bring along very valuable knowledge.

same thing with “john @ doe . org” -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_placeholder_names_by_language … what about
fulana @ alfulaniyya . org :wink:

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Ok cool! I sent you a message then. We should organise to do this :slight_smile:

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Even though I’m not speaking German, I’m feeling that we’re going to a way that could have consequences.

I you’re seriously considering using “inclusive” language, you should do it in a separate German locale, a kind of Inclusive German.
You may find people who want to have a inclusive language, but also other that won’t. To impose your view of the language to other is nothing like respectful or unifying.

So don’t consider that to impose inclusive language to everyone is very attractive or unifying. It will especially raise tensions and divide the community.

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@Maniack_Crudelis

To impose your view

What? The OP asked “Am I welcome”. There is no imposition here, this is a question, discussion and a proposal so far.

So don’t consider …

Do not consider that your reply will be understood as supporting an open and welcoming discourse within the Yunohost project. Read https://blogs.gnome.org/christopherdavis/2019/07/21/the-paradox-of-tolerance/.

TLDR;

To be tolerant means to allow people from all walks of life into your space, regardless of race, sexual or gender identity, or other factors used to marginalize people within society. To go further, a good community should do more than tolerate them, but let them know that they are welcome and that they will not be marginalized within the community.

This is the goal of this proposal around language.

If the Yunohost project wants to appeal to more people, then it needs to consider this point. The project does not strike a more “neutral / agreeable / tolerant” position by not supporting this proposal.

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Thanks for bringing this up!

I think Yunohost in this sense could benefit from an inclusive communication strategy as a whole (including wordings). I don’t know if people would be happy if new words are invented at this stage (like ‘hen’ in Sweden), but all other choice of words could of course be gender neutral.

If people would state that they want to continue a current tone of voice in the communication - like “dude, YUNOHOST?!” - then they are agreeing to the status quo of catering mostly to the male audience (or from the male perspective), whether they are aware of it or not.

Perhaps if you could give some examples of existing sentences on the site and how you would do them differently, may calm some people down. As they might realise it is not so different. If you do so, try to give a realistic impression in your choice of examples though, to avoid surprises later on.

Saying “hen” in Swedish does away with a meaningful way to distinguish gender. If for any reason you think it is new, consider it is already part of one local dialect in Norway. As such it is quite an interesting case study. As it turns out, the actual problems the native Norwegian society is sympathetic to, at the forefront of, and would want to do without are not solved by its use. In Swedish society, where its use does not enjoy general acceptance, and the direction of societal problems are more concerning, it only signals virtue, which is, though less so, a problem in and of itself.

I find this comparison wanting, they converge. As do the concepts of autonomy and anti-authoritarianism, ideally, for even the worst interpretation of “authoritarian”. I don’t understand how a group, or YunoHost at that, can stand for anti-authoritarianism. Yet another discussion for another day.

Spelling

Em dashes should not have whitespaces surrounding them in English. Also make note of the curious spelling of “YunoHost”.

I have removed some gendered plural third person references in the stringbase already, simply because it is improper use of English.

With a bit of skill and knowledge of etymology, it is easy enough to avoid gendered language where it does not belong, as opposed to the general nature of German and French, though the same applies. To the contrary, having actively ungendered language, by itself or contrary to the nature of the respective language, is removed from the neutral. Trying to do away with gendered nouns in languages that have them is similarly as counterproductive as inventions that make a language poorer, or use to that effect.
Speaking of, laudable neutrality is actually (regardless of scope,) hindered still by actively balancing mistakes. This is a practice championed by people who either want to, or unwillingly discredit themselves and/or their cause.

There are plenty of languages that are wrt. the above not German, like for example Esperanto, and for reasons German is not Esperanto, it will remain so. The YunoHost localisation effort is not the place to challenge it.

You are welcomed on equal terms, not anything beyond that. If you wish to be an equal, that is your appanage.

What do you mean when you say “gender-inclusive”?
How does the “outmoded stay relaxed”?
It is hard to gauge what the received critique is. What did you learn? Let us know, and what sorts of problems you foresee, or run into, to the benefit of YunoHost, and its community, not an agenda. The only concern I can rationalize from, and at the nature of your proposal, is whether what you are talking about is actually German.

The language code for German in YunoHost is “de”, which to my knowledge isn’t the informal one (de_DE@rude), but rather an alias for de_FORM (?) though I suppose any of the two is fine, or better yet, both. I would advice completing one, (as coverage is a greater concern in helping monolingual users) and then working out the diverging strings in the other, as fallback locales solve the problem of maintaining two translations of what is otherwise the same thing.

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Yep, I think you’re going in the right direction here.

Anyone is free to join us over at https://github.com/YunoHost/doc and start to submit changes to the documentation. I will glady review them (I am busy working on other core things but I try to support with reviews as much as possible). If you are not familiar with Github, check out https://guides.github.com/activities/hello-world/#pr or other similar tutorials.

One simple one is just to replace “Dude” with “Hey” or even “”.

https://github.com/YunoHost/doc/search?utf8=✓&q=dude&type=

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